Alex Otto Interview:
Interviewer: To start off, I would love to hear more about your general history of climbing and anything you can tell me about when and why you started.
Alex: I first started climbing when I was about fifteen or sixteen. It was long before it was sort of a “thing”. A girlfriend and I just loved being outside, so we got gear and we’d just go out to the crag, which I don’t even think they had ratings at that point and we’d set up top rope off of an anchor system off of like trees and just lower ourselves down and just top rope on whatever. I don’t even know what they were. It was just rock. I loved it. I loved being outside. It was such a cool thing because at that stage, when I look back on it, it was not about grades, it was not about accomplishment—it was just the pure joy of being on rock and moving the body and appreciating nature. Started a long time ago and then a number of years away from it just doing other things and not really hanging out with people that climbed much and I got back into it in my early thirties and just started getting really back into it—avid climbing, doing tons of outdoor, multi-pitches, travelling all over the world climbing. I’ve climbed in Thailand, Greece a few different times, and Mexico. Lots of places, seeing different rock, meeting different people. I love the sport. It’s something that brings me this sense of inner peace and accomplishment and I love the drive of pushing my body to its edge. One of my favourite things about climbing is how you can accomplish something that seems so impossible and you can either get it on the first go or work something you never thought you could accomplishment, that freedom of being high and that connection with the rock and finding these beautiful little features and natural creations that feel like they were made to be climbed.
Interviewer: Yeah, that’s really cool. I like that you said that your first climbing area was ungraded, because that must have created such a nice sense of actually being present with the rock rather than chasing grades, which is pretty easy.
Alex: Yeah and it’s an interesting thing as I’ve climbed more, I find that I’ve had to, so many times throughout my time with climbing, I’ve had to check myself frequently, because it’s very easy to get caught up with the grades. I’ve struggled anyways, at times, with losing a sense of joy with sport just because it’s really easy to get wrapped up in exactly that: the grades and the idea of what it “should” look like as opposed to what it feels like.
Interviewer: I love that about going outside, too, because I feel like in the gym I think “Oh, I can go pretty hard,” and then I step on a 5.10a and it’s the hardest thing I’ve done. It’s just completely different.
Alex: It’s so much more mental I find, outside. You can’t always look up and see the path you’re going to go. It’s so much more present as you’re on it. It’s exploring and learning how the rock forms and the direction you should go. I love that about being outside. It’s such a unique experience.
Interviewer: Yeah, it’s so wonderful. I’ve only been on a couple of outdoor trips so far, but last time I went to Vantage, and I noticed there how much of a difference rock quality can make. It was so chossy and even just that makes a massive mental barrier that is really fun to get over and challenge yourself with.
Alex: Totally. Learning that edge is just... Almost more than any other sport I’ve done, you really learn how far you can push yourself. I love that it’s such a personal sport. Although it’s incredibly social, and encouraging, and it's an amazing group of people, when you’re on the rock and you’re up there, everything slows down and becomes so about that moment. There’s not many things in life that completely clear your mind of anything and everything else that goes on in the day-to-day.
Interviewer: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. A great sense of peace can come from it. When you started, did you get any lessons or anything, or just read books about it, or...? Alex: No, I didn’t do any lessons, other than of course doing belaying courses and such. I grew up a ballet dancer—that was my primary sport from the age of five to twenty-eight—so, that familiarity with moving my body and understanding movement and being flexible really—I loved the grace, actually, of climbing. I have always loved the grace of climbing. I love making it look as beautiful and as much like a dance as possible. That perfect placement of the foot and the very intentional use of your hands. I like making it look like this dance where you just float up the wall. I feel like a lot of my understanding of it came from dance.
Interviewer: That’s a really cool correlation between the two because there’s such precision in both ballet and in climbing that you wouldn’t expect until you hear someone talk about it who’s really good. They’ll go, “Oh, I needed to shift my fingers a millimetre to the left to actually make this move.” It’s very specific.
Alex: Totally.
Interviewer: Are there any trips that stand out as super memorable?
Alex: I’ve been to Kalymnos a few times and it’s just paradise. It’s the most amazing place I’ve ever climbed. It’s a climber’s heaven. I don’t know that there’s a specific trip, I just feel so fortunate. I feel like this is the best sport to travel with. You see such a different part of culture and, like you said, you see the different types of rock and landscapes. It’s such a way of connecting and I feel like when we travel we’re just sort of floating through the culture and not really digging into the place we are and climbing is a really good way to embrace—it’s a different part of it—but embrace where you are. So, I don’t know if one trip really stands out, but I love that excitement of going to a brand new crag, or many crags, like on Kalymnos there’s fifteen-hundred climbs or something ridiculous.
Interviewer: That’s in Greece?
Alex: Yeah. It’s an island in Greece quite south, closer to Turkey. It’s a bit of a hassle to get there but once you’re there... it’s like the Whistler for climbers. It’s all about climbing. All the stores, all the bars... Everything is about climbing. It’s just a Mecca. It’s unreal the number of climbs there are and the rock quality is amazing.
Interviewer: I might have to put that one on my list.
Alex: You should!
Interviewer: How long have you been climbing at Crag X?
Alex: I would’ve definitely started at the old gym... I climbed when it was over on Bridge Street. It’s certainly been maybe thirteen or fourteen years.
Interviewer: Could you describe the accident that happened at Crag X?
Alex: I was working a climb that I’ve been on a number of times. It was the yellow 5.11d on the lead wall. I love that climb. Everything about it, I love the movement, I love the flow. I had every movement memorised, how I would breathe, how I would feel. I felt super good about it. We were supposed to go on a trip to Madeira the next day and I thought, “You know what, this climb’s probably going to come down, I really want to send it.” So I actually asked my fiance to come—he hadn’t been to the climbing gym in like, eight or nine months—and I had my best girlfriend belaying me, brand new shoes on... I was just feeling like “today is the day I am going to get this climb”. I warmed up as I would and I got on it and I was feeling so good, so centred. I got all the way to the top of the last move, which I’d fallen on multiple times. I think I’ve been on the climb six or seven times. I was just about to make the last move and I looked up and it was just the way it was: I had to throw for the last hold, which isn’t my favourite thing to do since I'm usually a pretty static climber, I don’t love a lot of
dynamic moves. I went for it and my fingers grasped the hold but I just didn’t stick it and in the process of doing that ... So I think what happened was, when I threw for the last hold, my leg sort of flailed a bit and my right leg caught the rope. And I remember feeling it, feeling my leg go behind the rope, which is something that since I’ve been climbing since the age of sixteen, I’ve honestly never put my foot behind the rope. I’m neurotic about it. I am extremely intentional with my foot placement and knowledge of where the rope is. It’s just one of those things that is what it is. This is the thing: even being as meticulous as I am, you can’t prevent everything. So, it caught the rope and I felt it. I immediately was like, “Okay, I’m falling and I’m going upside down.” I remember getting to the bottom of the trajectory of the rope and immediately feeling pain in my back. It was an instant feeling. So I knew at that point that something serious had happened before I even hit the wall. Then my head is actually what hit the wall first.
Interviewer: Oh, no.
Alex: Yeah. Somehow I didn’t get a concussion. I had a serious concussion three years ago from mountain biking and I don’t know how I didn’t get a concussion, because I hit it hard. I remember being upside down and ... the first thing I thought was that I was scared to get lowered because I felt like I just didn’t want to move. Everything in my body was seized up and in so much pain. They lowered me down and I knew right then that I had broken my back. There was nothing else that would feel like that level of pain. I’ve had a lot of injuries in my life and I just... It was... the intensity was overwhelming. At that moment, I would’ve been more careful about protecting my back. I could feel my legs, but there were definitely weird nerve signs going down both of them. I’m very lucky that nothing more happened because I wasn’t really protecting my back as much as I should’ve been given the fact that it was an unstable fracture. My friends were incredible. Everybody was incredible. Everybody at Crag X was there immediately. My friends basically cradled me and did everything they could. It took forty-five minutes for the ambulance to show up. Which was the most intense amount of pain for such a long time. It was incredible. Even at the front desk they know that Nolan, who also climbs there and is my ex and we’re still very close, they even called him. He came down immediately. I just felt like the community really surrounded me... [pause] Sorry.
Interviewer: That’s okay. Take your time.
Alex: I just felt really cradled and really taken care of. It was a really long time to wait and it was the most intense pain I’ve ever felt in my life. And I was scared. I remember thinking, “I have to control this, I have to stay okay.” I used my breathing and meditation and basically got my pain to a zero while I was waiting for the ambulance. I felt like everyone mobilised so well and the ambulance was amazing and got me to the hospital. I knew what they were going to tell me. I knew it was broken. Initially, after they did the first scan, they told me it was an unstable fracture—a burst fracture—of the L1, so the first lumbar vertebra. A burst fracture basically means that the vertebra has exploded. Both the pedicles—which are the joining bones to the back of the spine—also were fractured. There was a piece of the bone that, when it exploded, was pushing on my spinal cord. So, at that stage, they said that it’s unstable and I needed emergency surgery. They then made a decision to get an MRI and look at my ligaments to get a better sense of it. At that stage, they said that my ligaments were completely intact: there was no stretch, there was no tear, nothing. They said that it was no longer deemed “unstable.” So we attempted to leave it without surgery. My fall was on November 2nd [2024], a Saturday, and they admitted me to hospital and we tried crazy amounts of pain medication and physio. I went Sunday and Monday without any surgery. By Tuesday, I was beside myself with pain. I couldn’t mobilise, I had a catheter in, and I decided
that I needed surgery. On November 6th, I went for a fusion of T12 to L2 [vertebrae]. So there’s hardware in my back that kind of looks like scaffolding. There are two rods that go through the pedicles at T12 and then two rods that go through the rods of L2 and then connecting rods, so it literally looks like scaffolding built around the broken vertebra. They didn’t touch the actual broken vertebra. My incision is about twelve inches long straight down the middle of my back, 44 staples to keep it all together. I ended up spending the next six days in the hospital just learning how to walk again, basically. Using a walker and on pretty heavy drugs. I was discharged home on the 11th of November with a commode on the bedside and a bar for my bed and a raised toilet seat and a walker and a cane... Going from somebody that grew up as a dancer, who is also a yoga teacher, I mountain-bike, I climb... It’s very humbling to barely be able to walk, but also extremely humbling to know that I almost didn’t. The surgeon said that I should’ve been paralysed and the only reason I wasn’t was because my ligaments were so strong, and my back was so strong. Ironic as it is, it’s because of the sports that I do and because of climbing that I was as strong as I was. And that’s the reason I’m not paralysed.
Interviewer: Thank you for sharing that. That is definitely hard to wrap your head around: that you got injured doing the thing that you love but it’s also what protected you during the injury. I can’t imagine that.
Alex: It’s been quite a journey. I’m just shy of seven weeks post-op. If somebody had told me that this would happen, there’s just no way that I would’ve thought that I’d survive it, mentally. My sports are what define me, they’re how I cope... It’s my identity. There have been some dark moments, but I’ve had such a crazy amount of resilience. I actually can’t believe it. I’m incredibly grateful that I’m not paralysed and I’m incredibly grateful for the overwhelming support I’ve had. [laugh] I had to turn away people at the hospital, there were too many visitors.
Interviewer: Aw...
Alex: I just was overwhelmed with love. I was able to see a whole other side of my own strength that I truly never thought I had. It’s been quite the adventure, quite the journey. Interviewer: So now that you’re in recovery, what does rehabilitation look for you in the coming months?
Alex: There’s not a lot of direction... I’m a physician myself, but physicians are notoriously bad about understanding the body in terms of “how it works”. The surgeon told me that I wasn’t allowed to do anything for three months, he said: “just walk.” And that was not an option for me. So, at two weeks, I started my own rehab program. I’ve been pretty meticulous about creating my own rehab working to redevelop the muscles. I lost ten pounds, the muscle just melted off of my body after not moving. I’ve been avidly doing what I can to build the muscles up and rebuild the support in my body. It’s so important. It’s not what I was told to do, but I’m just... tuning in and listening to my body and allowing that to direct what feels good. I was able to get off all pain medications by about two and a half weeks post-op and I have pretty much no pain now, other than certain things I do like sleeping, certain movements. I’m focused on recovery and getting better and being stronger on the other side of this. Typically, I’m not supposed to do anything for three months, but as I say, I’ve just been working towards getting stronger. My harness was cut off the day of... They couldn’t get it off safely, so they had to cut it off. It’s an interesting feeling. That harness has been on so many trips with me and it’s a weird thing to think that it’s gone but... yesterday, I bought a new harness. I’m really excited to get back.
Interviewer: Do you feel like with this accident your relationship to climbing has changed at all because of it, or do you just want to get back because... like you said, climbing and doing the sports is what you love and what protected you.
Alex: I’ve thought a lot about it. There are a lot of people in my life who don’t understand it, but if somebody had told me that, at 44, I was going to fall and break my back doing this sport, I would still have done the sport. I love it. It’s my total joy and passion and I can’t wait to get back to it. I know there will be a long learning curve, mentally and physically. I’m sure I’ll be scared and will have to really listen to what I need mentally and physically, but I can’t wait to get despite this.
[pause]
Alex: The thing is with this sport, there’s inherent risk in the things that we do. I’ve never been somebody to let risk dictate what I do. I’ve only allowed it to educate me on how to do it properly. What I would love for people to be aware of is that this sport is really risky. There are things that can happen whether they’re injuries or worse and you can’t 100% prevent that from happening, but you can reduce the risk. What’s important is that people understand that this is a risky sport and to respect it. To give it all, utmost respect. Even in the gym—which should be the safest place, and never where I would’ve expected my injury to happen given the multi-pitches and the crazy stuff I’ve done—never let your guard down. Always be open to learning and being a better belayer, always be open to learning and being a better climber. When people give you feedback, to be open and learn and understand that this is just about making this sport that much safer and that much more enjoyable. I don’t think there’s anything that could’ve happened to prevent this injury, it was nobody’s fault. There’s nothing I would’ve done differently. It is what it is, and it happened. But it reminds me that we can always learn to be more gracious with the way we walk through this world and the way we do that is by keeping our minds open and listening to feedback and growing and being challenged. The number of times I see people get personal about feedback or get their guard up is not worth it. It’s important to stay humble and remember that we’re just trying to live a life of joy and to do that. You have to stay open to all the ways that you can do that. Interviewer: Absolutely, I agree with you there. I’ve noticed, especially with the more experience you get in climbing, the things they teach you as a beginner are not just for beginners. It ensures the safety of every person. I like the way you put it as “maintaining the respect” for the sport. All of that is part of the sport. If you don’t want to do your safety checks, if you don’t want to ensure you’re belaying safely... Well, you have to. It is the sport. Alex: It is the sport. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it. That’s why you do it. And there’s this beautiful ceremony with how we go about climbing and it doesn’t matter how many times you do it or where you do it. What you’re doing is something completely unnatural. It’s this beautiful partnership between the belayer and their partner. There always has to be that reverence for the sport itself. Like you say, the only way to do that is to go through those steps. The checks, staying connected, paying attention, staying focused. Interviewer: Yeah.
Alex: That wouldn’t have prevented this injury. It wouldn’t have, but it’s a reminder that things can happen. It doesn’t change the fact that I will still do this sport, but it reminds me to hold reverence for it.
Interviewer: It’s a beautiful sport because it’s so fun, but also there are a lot of dangers to it. It kind of mingles together to make this very intense relationship.
Alex: Totally. Sometimes slowing down and appreciating those pieces... Those are the pieces that I miss right now. Right now when I’m rehabbing, I’m just focused on strengthening my muscles, which doesn’t feel very ceremonial. It’s not very social. The parts
of climbing that I always come back to is the zen of it: why are we doing this? Why do we do this sport? That moment of tying the knot, checking the knot, checking with your belayer... that first touch of the wall. It’s just so easy to get caught up in the grades, as we were saying, or the other aspects of it. But I actually really miss those parts, because I can work my muscles in lots of different ways, I can get strong in lots of different ways, but there are not many things that allow you that ceremony, that grace, that social connection and connection to nature when you’re outside while building strength and fitness. It’s what makes it such a unique sport.
Interviewer: I don’t think I have any specific questions anymore, you covered a lot of great things wonderfully, but I wanted to ask if there’s anything specific you wanted to bring up or mention particularly?
Alex: It’s very important that people know that nothing about this is about blame. I don’t blame anybody for this. I never had that feeling of “poor me,” or “this is somebody else’s fault.” Or my own, for that matter. It’s not about blame and I don’t think that’s helpful in recovery. My goal from the very beginning of this has been to look forward and learn how I can be a stronger individual. It has made me so much stronger mentally than I ever thought possible. As I say, I really didn’t think I could survive something like this. We all get injured when we do these sports, you can’t escape injury. There’s always going to be something of all different levels. But focusing on the other parts, trying to be a well balanced human, so that when something like this happens you have that mental and physical support to continue going forward and to be strong... it is the best way to recover. To allow something like this to be a lesson and to come out of it and come out of it as a more well-rounded, stronger human. I’m not perfect, it’s not like every moment I’ve been grateful and happy, but ultimately I feel like I am going to come out of this as a better person, as a stronger person. Even a serious injury like this is an opportunity, all of these things, these challenges, just like a climb that challenges you. It’s an opportunity to grow and to be humbled. It’s a really important community to me, the climbing community. Staying connected with the people that we love. Knowing that we’re part of this family. That’s why I really wanted something to come out about this. There were a lot of people who I know didn’t really know what happened or were speculating. It’s a unique sport in that we are such a close family and tight community and that has been the biggest thing that has pulled me through this, the community that I felt around me. The love and support. So, letting everybody know that I’m okay...
Interviewer: Yeah. I actually was one of the people who heard about it word-of-mouth and it’s terrifying when you hear that and don’t know any updates of, y’know, how you are, if you’re alright. But I’m very glad to hear that you’re doing rehab and that you seem hopeful.
Alex: I am. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do because my surgeon hasn’t told me anything, but in my body I feel like I could come back soon. That’s a really exciting feeling to me. Of course, it will look different—I’ll certainly start with top rope—but I feel very hopeful that I’ll make a full recovery. That might not mean it’ll look the way it did before the injury, but full in the sense that I can live a full and strong, super strong life.
Interviewer: Thank you for sharing all that with me. Lots of great insights.
Alex: Thank you so much, it means a lot. I do look forward to coming back. I think it’s helpful to have this out there, partly because... I don’t really want to answer all the questions when I come back [laugh] ...
Interviewer: [laugh]
Alex: I want to be able to come back and enjoy it, to see people and be stoked. It’ll be nice to not have to field a whole lot of questions. But yeah, thank you so much for taking the time. Interviewer: Thank you so much.
Niko Interview:
Interviewer: The first thing I wanted to go over is what year the gym opened and where it was initially located.
Niko: It was the summer of 1995, July 26nd or 27th—
I: Down to the date!
N: Yep, down to the date. It was over in our original location, which was this old warehouse in the Bay Street/Rock Bay industrial area, so near the Bay Street Bridge. Right by the brewery that’s there now, Moon Under Water. It was definitely an industrial park.
I: So like a warehouse type building?
N: I think it was originally a lumber storage building. Before we got it, there was somebody who was restoring old cars in there. Basically it was a tin can, y'know. Not insulated, nothing. It was just a tin can shed that for our purposes was perfect because we just had to fill it with climbing walls.
I: I’ve seen pictures of it, those old red walls.
N: Originally it was the grays that most gyms were at the time, and pea gravel floors. I remember a couple years into it, maybe three years into it, we painted the walls lots of crazy colours for a winter refresh. Maybe closer to ‘98 or ‘99, we expanded, so we took over the whole building and sort of modernised and that’s when the walls went red and we put in the soft floors, got rid of the pea gravel.
I: Yeah, gravel?
N: We inhaled so much.
I: Were there cushions at all?
N: No, no cushions. The pea gravel was dirty, but it was really effective. It did a lot to absorb, and it was cheap, too. Back then... It cost more to tear down that whole facility than it did to build by a big margin. The refresh was really great, it was sort of the first move to being less of a dirtbag scene, which most gyms were when they started out. But that was a good thing, too.
I: When did you move locations?
N: That’s... I’ll have to check the dates on that. It’s crazy how time flies. [Editor’s note: Crag X opened their Pandora location on November 30th, 2015!] But we had outgrown that location for many years before we actually managed to move. We needed more space, but the buildings in Victoria... we just couldn’t find anything with height that was convenient for people, too. We didn’t want to move way out of town. It was just impossible to find something. It got pretty frustrating, then we realised we were going to have to build something if we really wanted to enter the “modern gym” era. And that’s something we really wanted to do. That took a few years and some real false starts with a couple of locations we thought were going to work out. Just before we found this property here, we had been trying to work a deal on another property that was really similar a few blocks away. But the land had some environmental issues and stuff, but it was a year of almost having it down, having the concept building, the prices in places, a deal for financing... and then it just fell apart. I remember thinking that was it. It’s not gonna happen. I remember being pretty frustrated, and then the realtor called and said that this property had come up. I had already moved to Vancouver and I almost didn’t come over. I was just like, “Yeah, I’m not going through this again” kind of thing. Then Kenneth happened to be in town that week, which at that time, he wasn’t here as regularly, so I can’t remember why he was here... but he went, looked, and
immediately called and said “This is it.” Funnily, he sent a picture of... you know the second-hand store next door?
I: Yeah, the WIN.
N: In the window, there was a set of rock climbing shoes that were vintage rock climbing shoes for sale. And he said, “There’s a sign.”
I: [laugh] Yeah, that seems like a sign.
N: So I came over. That was the beginning of the development of this lot. I think it’s worked out. It hasn’t been without its challenges, for sure, but... I have a lot of really fond memories of the old location because we literally lived there when we first opened. We had to borrow money from some of my friends who were there helping finish the building—they were coming after work and helping with some vinyl carpentry and whatnot—and the day we opened I had to borrow money for the float, y’know, because it was all cash back then.
I: Woah, for the float, yeah. That’s crazy.
N: One of the early members ... Owen Kelly was the guy who lent us that... what was it, sixty dollars or something, so we could make change for the first people that came through. There were a lot of good memories in that place.
I: You and Kenneth are the co-owners?
N: Yep, co-owners. We started climbing together when I was still in highschool ... I was pretty good friends with his younger brother, but Kenneth and I were the ones who started climbing together a lot in Ontario. There are a lot of really great limestones in Ontario. He knew a lot of the other people who were climbing, and often you get taken under the wing of other people, which is what happened. Kenneth and I did some trips to the states together, a big one in California... When I finished highschool I didn’t go to university right away, or at all, really. I deferred an acceptance for... I can’t even remember what it was for. I wasn’t on any real path at the time. But I loved climbing and so in the summer I did a big trip west and down into California and then came back to Toronto. That was sort of the early days of the gym industry and I got a job teaching. I had already started teaching outside with the Ontario Rock Climbing Association, which was ahead of its time, I’d say. I got certified with them, did some teaching outside, some teaching inside at the Toronto gyms. I spent the winters doing that and came out here, climbed some more. As one of my friends—one of the guys who ended up being one of our mentors, a big figure in the Ontario climbing scene David Smart, who wrote one of the big guidebooks up there—we were at one of the climbing gyms and he just commented how a well-trained monkey could do the job—[laugh]
I: [laugh]
N: I was like, “Oh, y’know. Maybe that’s for me, I guess.” And so that made me, seeing that it was still in its infancy, start thinking about how I could maybe think about opening a gym. At the time, I had spent a little bit of time in Vancouver and Squamish. Vancouver had one, but I thought that maybe it could have another. I just came to look around, but already other ones were already under construction, so that kind of ended that. Some friends said that I should go to Victoria—I knew some friends here—so I came over for a visit and ... I thought “Oh, it’s too small, I don’t know.” I was thinking that it needed a much bigger population. But I started looking into it and realised that maybe it was a good spot. Really, it worked out as well as it could. It was the right size for what I could manage at the time. So the search began for a location. I wasn’t the only one at the time looking for a building to do something like this in, but I did happen to be the first to find one that would work. We started building, a friend and I, and I had some construction experience so we just started at it. The word started to get out a bit to some of the other people. Victoria already at the time, well before—I had nothing to with this—the climbing community was already well-started. We went down bouldering at
Fleming Point there and a bunch of the key guys were there. For the longest time that’s been a practised bouldering area. The island in general had some big figures. Peter Croft... it was the article, I think it was Equinox, had an article on Peter Croft climbing in Yosemite Valley. I had that poster over my bed when I was... y’know, didn’t have rockstars. And he’s from Nanaimo. Lives in California now, but obviously a big part of Squamish development. There was Hamish Fraser and Greg Foweraker, they’re all island guys. But the guys who were at Fleming Beach at the time, there was Andrew Boyd, who’s quite an accomplished climber, and in the bouldering scene, there was Nick Gibbs... Tim Doyle.
I: Loads of people.
N: Unbelievable climbers. Really great climbers, and just great characters. Mark Phillips, there’s another big one. They were active in developing the climbing areas, like the rope routes around here. So I got to know them and they’d come by the gym. When we opened it was a pretty quick adoption by core people that were there right early. It kind of spread from there. Kenneth wasn’t part of the project initially, but he had finished his schooling and had a year before was going to start his family life. So he came out to help out, especially when we opened, and it was great to have him around. There was a time when there was no money going around, so he invested into and took on part of the ownership as well. He was around for a year, which was great for getting the early systems established. He then left for Ottawa, so for the next pile of years, I was at the helm. What worked out so great is that, around the time his children were in less need of constant parenting all of the time, my life with children was taking over. We almost kind of swapped roles, so he was able to come out more often. So, just again, another bit of good timing and good fortune. Of course, all along we had some pretty great staff— Chris Larson was a huge help and really kept things together here as I spent less time here. He was a really solid person who kind of knew some of the vibe that Kenneth and I were always hoping to maintain here.
I: I was wondering about that: did you have a specific intention or vision with the gym when you opened it?
N: Kenneth and I were really into climbing and the community of climbing and were always interested in having a facility for people that were also—that climbing was their lifestyle sport. Back then, we would do the birthday parties and the Boy Scouts as a necessary thing, or bachelor party stuff... things that were a one-time amusement experience for people. That wasn’t really something that we wanted to focus on, but it covered a lot of the bills. But because we were always focused on the lifestyle climber, I think that affected how we set our routes. We weren’t setting for children, or whatnot. And we loved it: the act of climbing, creating interesting routes. That was always something that was impressed upon me in the first days of my climbing. I started at Joe Rockheads in Toronto and the Bergman brothers there were prolific route-setters. Way ahead of their time in terms of paying attention to the craft of route-setting. That really was a huge influence on me. I think that’s what kept some of the adults engaged ... There was always something to challenge them here. It was always very satisfying—especially as I was not in town as much—to come back to town and still see the same face of people who have been climbing here from the early days. It’s nice to see that they’re still getting something out of coming here. Some of it’s the climbing, but it’s also the community. There are the children of people who met here as climbers; they met, got married, had children, now the children are climbing. And some even started working for us. It’s pretty neat when you think about it.
I: That’s the nice thing about directing towards the lifestyle climber: you have a customer for life, who’s going to be in the community for life.
N: Yeah, it does help with the vibe. Again, there is a place for the hordes of Boy Scouts and whatnot, but sometimes those don’t mix. As we got busier in the old location, it was impossible to have groups there without impacting the experience of the adults.
I: Just because of the size?
N: Yeah. It was just too crowded with the kids running around. I mean, they’re having a great time and it’s awesome! But it wasn’t compatible. There were gyms that were more focused on youth, and competitions, too. That whole competition scene was exploding. The only competitions we had, really, we always had some fun theme. Definitely not sanctioned, nothing serious. Back then, although competing was big in many other gyms, ours weren’t quite big enough, or we couldn’t have sanctioned events that would motivate those competitors to come over from Vancouver for a competition. There just weren’t enough people here who were interested, really. Which is fine with us; it never felt like we were missing out. But, again, I think it had an impact on the community that we’ve ended up with here.
I: Going forward now, do you have any future plans for Crag X and what that looks like?
N: Honestly ... it was such an intense period leading up to getting the development done, the design... We were very involved with that whole process, the terrain... I obsessed over that for months. Walltopia was awesome for letting me direct that whole process.
I: How does that work? Did you design them yourselves?
N: Computers! A lot of the time, Walltopia has their own design team and they’ll do something that fits the building. You'll tell them kind of what you want. But we wanted something that was our own style, a little bit. I wanted to go with this triangulated theme. They initially were reluctant because the way the seams come together complicates the joinery on it. But I convinced them to consider it. I saw a gym in Norway that was all small triangles, and I really liked how it looked. Doing it that way was too much, and also, it was their thing ... but back to the initial point, it was a bunch of years of nothing but gym planning, getting the money together somehow to make that work. I was over here a lot, but I was still able to do it because at that point, we’d just had our first child and my wife was still home, so I was able to. But by the time we opened, I’d had my second child, and it was not easy to get over here as much. We still had a really great staff—we still do—that were able to do the day-to-day. In the last couple years, it’s been really hard to get over and sometimes almost, I feel like because I’m not involved on a daily basis, it actually can interfere. The staff here have it really under control. When I’m away for a while—it doesn’t happen so much anymore, but initially—I’d sometimes start to worry, “What crazy decisions are being made?” Then I come to town and I still see the same faces that were climbing at the old place—I call them the bell-weather members—I can always trust what they were saying. Just the simple fact that you see a lot of the people who were climbing for years before are still coming, so it was pretty reassuring that things were under control here, and they really are. Sometimes it’s like, showing up might be more of an interruption.
I: You live in...
N: Vancouver now. My wife is a physician and the opportunity for her in Victoria just didn’t exist. There weren’t any spaces for her. This was before we had gotten into the project of expanding and stuff, and the old gym was already running quite well and independently, so I was just like, “Well, I can just move to Vancouver if it’s easier for you” ... So that’s how I ended up there. I still miss the island, for sure... As far as the future, I don’t know! Crag X is more of a community than a business and I’m not Crag X, so it’s its own thing. As my kids get older and a little more independent, I sometimes think that I would love to come back and route-set, which I love. That was my passion for the longest time: creating routes, and
even better, being there to watch people come and try to figure out the routes and get something out of it. That was a big part of my time at the gym was that connection with the community. I love route-setting, but it obviously takes time, being able to spend time on the island is tricky. I’d love to do that again. We’ll see!
I: Alright, well I should probably let you get to lunch. Thank you for talking with me!
Lena Laitnen Interview:
Interviewer: Hi Lena! Happy new year.
Lena: Happy new year! I’m just in the middle of building a training plan for my partner for when we head down to Australia.
I: Oh, cool! For climbing?
L: Yeah.
I: That’s amazing, super cool!
L: Hopefully he likes it. [laugh]
I: When are you heading to Australia?
L: We fly out on the 20th of January and I start school in February.
I: Awesome.
L: It’ll be a big change. There’s lots of climbing down there, so, excited about that. Definitely the end of an era for us though, ‘cause I’ve always lived in Victoria and been part of the climbing community here for almost a dozen years. So, it’s a big change.
I: So you’re from the city?
L: Yeah, from here originally. I started climbing out at the Boulders out in Stellys and climbed at the old Crag X before Pandora. When I was climbing, those were only gyms in Greater Victoria.
I: I was talking to Niko about that.
L: Isn’t that wild? Now there’s... how many... Stelly’s, CARSA, Crag X, BoulderHouse, BoulderHouse... at least five.
I: Yeah, those are the only ones I know about. That sounds about right. I’ve just been to Stelly’s and Crag X and BoulderHouse. Haven’t checked out the one in Langford, though. Did you get to stop by there since you were just in Langford?
L: Oh, yeah no, our buddies live out there. We climb there a bit... We climb mostly in Victoria, but we climb in Langford once in a while. They don’t have training boards there, but the setting is really fun. It’s very comp-style. It’s good stuff. I used to run the youth programs out there for a while when Langford first opened.
I: Very sweet. I’ll have to give it a try out sometime.
L: Yeah! It’s really fun.
I: We kind of covered a bit of this already, but my first question was going to be: can you tell me a bit about your history with climbing and how you started?
L: Oh, nice. Always a Victoria local from the get-go. I went to Stelly’s highschool. My partner and I got into climbing together when I was still in highschool. I didn’t do the academy; the academy was pretty expensive. They used to have these deals... same with Crag X with Power Hour. We used to do the Power Hour at Stelly’s and Crag X and stuff like that way back. We mostly got into ropes at first and lead climbing was kind of the main jam for the first couple of years and then we got really into bouldering. We’ve kind of been in pebble-wrestler mode for... god, how many years now? Since 2019, maybe, that bouldering has been my main focus. But I’ve been a lead instructor at CARSA. Actually, I think I’ve worked at every gym in Victoria.
I: That’s crazy!
L: Yeah, I’ve volunteered at Stelly’s way, way back, and then I’ve set at Crag X for a few months doing boulder setting. I was the head setter up at Brentwood College for a bit last year and the program director there. I’ve worked at both BoulderHouses for quite some time. Then I worked at CARSA for a long time too.
I: That’s amazing.
L: Yeah! Kind of a jumbled history, but I’ve been very interwoven into the community here for a while. I’ve been climbing outside since the beginning. Mostly lead at first, lots of sport, got into trad... I’ve dabbled in trad over the years, but not much on the island, mostly in Squamish. Lots of bouldering in the last six or seven years. I’ve competed on the national circuit a couple of times. A few years I got really into comps, explored that avenue. Then a route-setter at all five Greater Victoria gyms... What else? Worked desk, stuff like that. Then ran the youth programs over at BoulderHouse Langford the first year that program opened. I was a lead instructor over at CARSA and did some outdoor climbing camps. I ran their women’s night program for a number of years... It’s been crazy watching how much the community has grown over the past decade.
I: When did you start climbing?
L: I started climbing in 2013. It’s cool to see my growth. What climbing has contributed to my growth over the years is immense. I owe so much to climbing in terms of my personal growth. To see the community grow around me as well is a really cool parallel.
I: It seems like you’ve been really entrenched in it... I mean, working at all five!
L: It’s awesome. Everybody is great. Everybody’s contributed to this beautiful community. I’m just so sad to be leaving, but it’s for good opportunities. I’m going to Australia to go to med school. My brave partner is joining me, but he’s a dual citizen, so at least he doesn’t have to deal with a Visa.
I: Yeah, that makes it easier.
L: There’re huge sacrifices, but really, really cool opportunities. It’s going to be an interesting new chapter for us. Big change. It’s hard to get kind of displaced from a community that I’m so tightly a part of. It’s so interwoven.
I: That’s one of the best things about climbing, I’ve found. I mean, the great thing about it is: you take a break, you come back. It feels like things have changed, but you can always integrate back in because it’s always so welcoming.
L: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, who knows, we might come back after I’m done with school, we might stay there, I’m not sure. Either way, I think I owe a lot to this community. I’ve had some really good mentors and most of my close friends are from the Victoria climbing community. The coolest jobs I’ve had, too. I’ve had hundreds of students, adults, running private lessons or climbing camps or youth programs. I’ve had hundreds of students and clients who are doing amazing things. Actually, it was a really cool full-circle moment that happened this year... Or, last year I guess because it’s 2025. [laugh] Back when Crag X ran the first Highballathon in 2018, right from the get-go I was like, “Wow, this is going to be sick. This is going to be the best comp ever.” And I was totally right. Stick to my guns on that: I’ve done a lot of competitions and Highballathon is the best comp.
I: You were amazing to watch in it, too!
L: Aw, thanks. In 2018 was the first year it was run and I had an absolute blast. I did not think that I would make finals. Back then, I was barely competing in open. I hadn’t competed at any sanction comps on the circuit yet. So I didn’t expect it, but I made finals. I ended up third that year. The next year in 2019, I did Highballathon again and I made finals and came in second. So I was kind of creeping up the podium. And then we had a huge break throughout
the pandemic. I came back in 2023 and won that year, so it was cool to creep up the podium over the years. And then this year was really cool: I made finals again, but one of my old students who was one of the kids in our program at BoulderHouse Langford, Addy, she won! It was so cool... I looked at her and I was just like, “Man!” It’s so cool to look at how two years ago, only a few years ago, when I remember her climbing in the Treehouse in our brand new program, she was one of our first students, and that was like her first time climbing. And then I coached her for maybe a year and watched her get so strong. It was so cool to go from her watching her first time, come into the community as a brand new climber, and then she wins Highballathon! A few years later! It was just, like... wow, so cool. It gives me goosebumps.
I: Yeah, absolutely a moment of pride.
L: It’s so cool to see things come full circle like that. This community is growing, it's growing fast, but this community is still strong. And it still has mentorship. There are a lot of ties. Even though it’s growing really quickly and climbing is exploding, it’s still a community and we’re still all connected, all supporting each other.
I: Niko said something really similar, that when he walks into the gyms sometimes he sees people who climbed together, met in the gym, and now they’re bringing their kids in together. It’s been this past thirty years and they’re still entrenched in the community. It’s so cool. I was at the first Highballathon, I was just a watcher, did some of it just for fun, and that was in 2018, the first time. Then I took a big break for school and came back last year and I still see so many of the same faces, sending hard. And the level of talent is amazing to watch. All the climbers were incredible.
L: That’s cool that you’ve been there since the first one too! When did you start climbing?
I: I started in 2017, then went to school and just didn’t have a lot of time. And then as soon as I was done, I was like, “Y’know what, I’ve got the itch. I’m coming back for sure. It’s undeniable.”
L: Oh, cool! So that’s why you said that you can integrate back into the community pretty easily.
I: Yeah! I mean, now I write the newsletter.
L: That’s cool that you had that experience too. I feel like starting pre-pandemic makes a big difference, too. It was worrisome for a while when we had that lull. Part of me thought, “Oh god, I wonder if the climbing community is going to survive this.” We came out in the end, everyone’s kind of back to normal now. The resiliency there was pretty phenomenal.
I: They were closed for a long time, right? Just everywhere on the island.
L: And Crag X especially, with rope gyms too, the overhead is insane. So when you’ve gotta stay closed that long, it’s scary. So, seeing everyone come out on top after that, and the community is still really strong, and the gym is doing really well... It really makes me happy. I: It’s just great. But now you’re going to Australia, so it’s going to look like a very new thing for you going forward. Do you have plans to do some climbing and to check things out down there?
L: Oh, absolutely. There’s phenomenal sandstone down there. Blue Mountains are about an hour and a half out of Sydney, pretty close to where I’m going to school. We already got the bouldering guide for Sydney, we got the Blue Mountains guidebook for all the sport and trad. Earlier I just weighed my trad rack, trying to see if we can fit in the suitcase without going over weight and stuff. [laugh] Like, “Hm... Can I bring this second GriGri?”
I: Ah yes, very necessary luggage. [laugh]
L: So funny. So we’re trying to bring all of our climbing gear over. At first, we were like, “Okay, we know we have to bring sport gear. We have to bring our crash pads, but we’re not
going to bring all of them... Maybe we just won’t bring our trad rack.” And then we discovered more and more trad climbing and now we’re like, “Ah, shit... Now we have to also bring the trad rack?!”
I: Brutal. [laugh]
L: So we’ll definitely be climbing down there. Of course, I’m going to be in med school, so it’s going to require some time management skills and all sorts of stuff at play there. But, through everything else in my life, I’ve managed to always keep climbing as a constant. I’ve done a Microbiology degree and through that I’ve been climbing and training, sometimes competing. Competing... that’s hard. Competing during school is really, really tough, but training I think is better? It’s better to have a training plan for me when I’m in school because it helps you keep routine and self-care. It’s time consuming, but it keeps you healthy.
I: It seems like it’d be an effective and much more productive way of procrastinating... [laugh] L: [laugh]
I: Having a hobby or side project that is good for you, and not just sitting and watching TV or something, it seems like a good choice. [Editor’s note: Which is absolutely what I did.]
L: That’s true. It gives you a good routine and stability to your week so you’re not just trying to pull all-nighters studying. It forces you to book out your life a bit more. I’ll still maintain it, with training. This will be kind of fun actually, since, after so many years of boulder focus, I’ll kind of be flipping back to lead for a bit since there’s such phenomenal sport climbing down there. A dozen years climbing, I’ve worked in the industry for a lot of years in different positions and all that, and I’m still not bored of climbing, you know? I still love climbing. Sometimes you switch disciplines, or you get injured and have to rehab something, but I think the big thing is to never quit. Just never stop. Always find ways to integrate it into your life. I think the other portion of it is that, outside of loving climbing and that it keeps you fit, the community aspect is such an essential part of my life. I’m so grateful for myself and my partner that we have climbing going to the other side of the world. It makes it a little less scary. Yeah, we’re really bummed that we’re leaving our community here, but at least we’re going to be able to find community there because of climbing.
I: That throughline is just everywhere. I’m sort of in the same position as well. I’m applying to school in England and one of the first things I did was checking all the nearby climbing gyms. L: Ohh, where?
I: Canterbury.
L: You should see how far that is from Sheffield. That’s like the Boulder, Colorado of the UK from what I’ve heard, if that makes any sense. [laugh]
I: Very good to know!
L: What are you going to school for?
I: Master’s in Medieval Literature and Culture.
L: That is so wildly cool.
I: [laugh] Thank you.
L: That is so wildly cool. Oh my god, especially in England.
I: Yeah, that’s why I’m going!
L: That makes sense! They probably have the coolest artefacts... wicked shit there.
I: Yeah, just stuff we can’t get here. It’s definitely going to be a huge change of scenery. I’ve also been living in Victoria for the last decade and some, and that switch is scary, but I’m excited for it. But also to see what they have to offer. The setting in UK gyms is just so interesting from what I’ve seen. I think they have a comp style boulder gym in Canterbury. So it’ll be cool to see what that’s like.
L: Oh, neat. Do you mostly boulder, or what kind of climbing do you like?
I: I definitely prefer sport... If I’m outdoor, I love doing sport. I need to get back into it, though. I do mostly top rope because my partner is top rope only. I touch the boulder wall every once in a while, though.
L: Fair. Maybe get into trad, eh?
I: Definitely intimidating, but...
L: They’ve got the famous trad there. Kind of scary, though.
I: Why’d you make the switch to bouldering, by the way?
L: It was a gradual change, I think. Two big things I think... I’ve still always kind of lead climbed, I was a lead instructor for a long time, too. And then the last time I actually did a project that I sent was either Quarter Century Girl in Horne or maybe it was Mrs. Negative in Squamish. So once I did a little handful of 5.12s, I was kind of like, “Okay, I kind of just want to get stronger. I don’t think endurance is the issue any longer.” Especially because a lot of our routes here aren’t that long. So I just wanted to be stronger and more powerful. I was more of a static climber and it started biting me in the ass. So I really started focusing my training on that. At the time I was way into every TrainingBeta podcast and all The Power Company podcasts, all that stuff... They were kind of the only climbing training podcasts around at the time, so I started listening to that. There was a lot of: “When people get to solid 5.11, they’re progressing to that point... You should just be training on boulders.” You should just be getting stronger and more powerful and working on complex movement, assuming that at that point you’re pretty fluid at clipping and all that. So that was one of the reasons why I switched to bouldering, to get better at sport, to get better at lead. But then I fell in love with it. The other portion of it was at the time that I was starting to break into 5.12s, I also had this huge, massive battle with my lead head. I used to be very, very, very scared of lead falls. It was a battle. It took me a few years to get over that ... As I was progressing and getting stronger, I got to a point where I was climbing top rope more than a full number grade harder on top rope than on lead. Then I went, “Wow. It’s because I’m not very strong, so I need to work on that.” So I went away and worked on the strength component and did some bouldering. But I was still having issues on lead, so it was in my head. Definitely psychological, for sure. So I knew I really needed to work on that. It was a long time of really hammering that in. It took me a couple years, but I worked through it. Now I think—knock on wood-pretty good. I’ve taken whips on gear and stuff like that now. But it was really rough, getting over fear of falling, was really rough. Once I got over that hump, my interest gravitated from ropes to boulders because it had been my nemesis for so long, getting over that crippling fear. So once I was not scared of falling anymore, I thought, “Well, now what?” I: Defeated the final boss.
L: Yeah, when you beat that boss. Over the years I’ve kind of jumped back and forth, where you find a new final boss, a new dungeon with a set of bosses you fight. Then went you get to the final boss, you’re like, “Do I want to do a similar dungeon, or do I want to completely switch it up?”
I: Yeah, that’s super cool.
L: Now, after this huge, seven-year long side quest, I might actually be coming back around to that original goal of bouldering to get better at lead climbing. Finally, I think—I don’t know, but I think—that if I get back on ropes, I’m going to see a frickin’ huge jump because the times I’ve been on ropes in the last few years, all the moves seem easy now. Now I just have to get my endurance back and get smooth with resting and stuff like that again, but I think it worked. I remember semi-recently ... the past couple years, I went up to Horne Lake and hopped on—have you climbed in Horne Lake much?
I: No, not yet sadly.
L: Okay, you have to check that out before you go to England.
I: Putting that on the list, for sure.
L: Up in Nanaimo, I hopped in this route in the Amphitheater called You Enjoy Myself—everybody calls it the warm up, which is hilarious because it’s 11a—
I: Oh, come on.
L: ... but it’s just the easiest thing in that portion of the Amphitheater, in that portion of the crag, so everyone hilariously calls it that, which is so disheartening because you’re like, “Dude...the warm-up? What the fuck?”
I: Not my warmup.
L: Then you get used to it, you get used to it and it becomes the warm-up. And then the next poor, unsuspecting victim who hasn’t climbed in Horne Lake goes, “How is this the warm up?!” I hopped on the warm-up and it was so chill, it was so easy. I hadn’t lead climbed in a few months, at least, and I realised that it does make a difference. Moves you found difficult before just aren’t difficult anymore. Your RPE is lower—your Relative Perceived Exertion is lower—so it takes a lot more to get you pumped. Of course, the crippling fear isn’t there anymore, so I’m not over-gripping and all the rest of that. So I was like, “Damn, I think it worked. My huge side quest might have worked.” We’ll see. I just came up with some goals for Australia this year. I mean, it’s pretty lofty because I’m going to med school so I’m going to have a lot of school shit to do, but I’m hoping to maybe... Their grades are a bit different, so a 28 is a 5.13a, so I want to see if I can crack 13s down there. It would be cool.
I: You’re there for five years?
L: Yeah, school is for four years, then it depends if I stay there for residency, we’d stay there for a couple more years and get licensed there. Or I can write my licensing exam back here and apply for residency back here. Minimum four years.
I: Well, that gives you a lot of time to obtain that goal, so!
L: Yeah, totally. I just saw a post, actually, of someone else in Australia who is competing on the circuit and—she just came fourth in nationals, I think, down there—and she’s in med school. So I was like, “Oh! Cool. It can be done.”
I: Someone to look to for some guidance.
L: It’s exciting. It’s going to be interesting to learn a new grading system, too. Sandstone routes, too... we don’t have that here.
I: Awesome! Well, I think I definitely have enough to work with, but it’s been so fun to talk to you about this.
L: Haha, sorry I kind of ramble. I’m not even sure... I probably rambled so much that we didn’t get to like half of your questions. [laugh]
I: I mean, you actually intuited most of them, so we didn’t need much guidance here! Great rambling, perfect rambling.
L: Oh, sweet. I will say, too, because I know the Member of the Month is... I’ve never been Member of the Month, so that’s really cool, so thank you for reaching out. It’s really sweet and I feel very grateful for that.
I: You’ve been great to watch in competitions and a huge part of the community so, definitely a good thing to do before we leave.
L: I appreciate that. I was thinking, good timing! Kind of interesting to... yeah, it’s my last month before I head out and I want everyone to know that, I’m excited for school and stuff, but I’m sad to be leaving. This is my community and I love all those guys at Crag X, they’re fuckin’ awesome. I’ve know them all for so long and they’re always so fun to climb with, so fun to work with, so fun to be around. They’ve created a really nice environment over there. I’m really grateful for them.
I: I hope you find a community that is just as good in Australia!
L: I think I will. The cool thing about that whole thing with Addy, those kinds of experiences have made me realise... When you’re first coming into climbing and you’re new, it’s kind of like, “There are so many cool people, it’s such a cool community and I want to be a part of it. I want to be a part of this community.” And then over the years I realised, no, no. We build the community. We shape it. You know?
I: Yeah. I think it the first few years it feels like you’re waiting on the sidelines and then at some point you realise, “Hey, wait. I’m in this.” We all make up a big part of it.
L: Like you right now! You doing the newsletter, you’re steering the community.
I: Aw.
L: It’s true! People read what you write and it gives them a sense of what the Victoria climbing community is like.
I: That’s very sweet. I love doing it. I’m glad to be able to give something back in this kind of way.
L: It’s very cool.
I: Well, thank you so much for talking to me. This was great.
L: Thank you! Thanks for calling and sorry to take so much of your time on your first day of the year. [laugh]
I: All good, it was a pleasure.
L: Hopefully before I leave we can climb together or something, that’d be sweet.
I: Yeah, that’d be sweet! Alright, I’ll talk to you later.
L: Have a good night!
